State of the Evolution

It took you more than a month longer than expected, so I don't think you are evil just because testing it a few days more on effective practice.

However, I can hardly wait to test it myself ;)

I read this post via the twitter feed. It was interesting to see both sides of the what will be an ongoing story.

Also, b2evo is great. Congratulations... Bye

Hi ..
I would like a plugin for b2evo to treat photos like WP 2.9 or Orkut. Also, an improvement in the uploaded files.
Tks

When in the course of human events it becomes necessary....ugh...nevermind.

Francois,

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

You and the folks who have been helping are making a real difference in the world whether you realize it or not so keep on keeping on!

Alex

B2 is great, Francois. It keeps getting better and so far we have all of the really important plug-ins. I hope for both our sakes, that it continues.

I guess this is where my knowledge of how b2e behaves in all circumstances falls short. I've only ever looked at a copy as Admin, or as a casual member of the browsing public. I've never had a need to be a logged in member, so have only ever seen the evobar in my Admin role.

I still like the idea of the menu bars being combined, the visible options would just need to vary based on a users permission settings I think - how easy/difficult that is though, I wouldn't like to hazard a guess.

yea but you are referring to a menu that exists only in BO and available to admins (/users with bo access), whereas evobar is supposed to be both for admins and users.they are not the same thing.Allthough i have a few ideas to put together the menu you have mentioned and its submenus.And as i said, if such a menubar like evobar somehow "has to" stay, its functionality may be increased so that it wont look that useless and annoying.or just an X to get rid of it would be fair enough for the average user i guess.No biggie, but could be useful to shape up those top menus sometime.

I'm referring to the one with "Dashboard | Posts/Comments | Files | Stats | Blog Settings | Global Settings | Users | Tools" on it.

"The one below the evobar" ? Are you referring to one of the header containers ? or is there a second menu that i havent heard of

Emin, my apologies if I've misinterpreted your meaning above, but I am assuming that your first couple of paragraphs above are in response to some of my own observations. If not, then I'm sure you'll clarify that for me.

I don't believe that I am saying that François is infallible in the decision making process, from from it. All I am suggesting is that when one or more options are available, then some decision must be reached as to how to proceed based on the information to hand. For my own part I have a preference for that to be taken by one individual, as I'm not sure it's possible to come to a consensus position, though I wouldn't suggest for a minute that this shouldn't be explored. The very fact that François has created this blog suggests to me that he is open to discussion (why leave comments open otherwise), and that to seed this discussion, he has chosen to write a series of pieces explaining his own position and preferred direction.

As far as menus are concerned, I'm most emphatically NOT suggesting that any more be created. When I suggest using the "2nd menu", I am only proposing that the one below the evobar be improved in such a way that it can fully replace the evobar.

I think that's me for the moment... >;o))

thinking that you are doing the right thing for your own good does not make it more probable to be right.

I am not implying he is wrong, i am just sayin that being the maintaner does not make his decisions a better choice.IMO Positive prejudice is as bad as the negative one ;) I dont mean to reduce fg's nowadays more than ever ethusiasm.

See, i am not labeling anything as bad or good, i am just questioning the situation.

About the menu, i did not suggest a second menu, god no.:)Just an undisturbing single line somewhere that offers confused user a hand while he's wandering around, not necessarily on top.

Yes a lot of people dont like the evobar but sometime ago, a user at the b2 forums has stated just what i always thought, it was sth like "I could do if it wasnt there, i only use the write button and ...(one more thing that i dont remember as i dont use it :)]

Though it's fairly easy to get rid of the evobar, at least making it toggled may be considered via jquery.

Btw, i was poking around a little here and there, and you might want to update the article on wikipedia with a few facts.

Despite all the above anti-menu talk, one with "features" instead of "links" may be useful i think.

I've been following the discussion with interest for a few days now and am wondering about the use of the word "arbitrary" to describe the thought process surrounding the development of b2e. On the one hand, the word can be defined as...

"subject to individual will or judgement without restriction; contingent solely upon one's discretion"

or as an alternative as

"Determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not by necessity, reason, or principle"

Now the former implies some level of consideration before making a decision, whilst the latter appears anything but considered.

What neither definition does for me though, is make a case for what I believe François is doing here. There are no doubt a great many features that could be included or excluded from a default install of b2e, but I don't think it's right to assume that these are not very carefully considered without a view to how these will affect the b2e development path, the user experience, the ability to attract new users, or any other number of factors.

Perhaps François hasn't made it explicit here, but I find it difficult to believe that he takes any decision on what constitutes the core lightly. much less he does that in splendid isolation of the other developers who contribute to this particular product. It seems quite reasonable to me that many views needs to be considered , but that ultimately, given two contending views, some one person needs to make a decision. Without that decision, things will stagnate. I only have to look at the company I work for and the societal pressures that constrain it to see what rampant collectivism does for progress. In my view, any decision is better than no decision, and that necessarily has to be made on the best information available at that time, regardless of its source.

On a more pragmatic view, I have to say that Emin's views on the presentation of the BO, echo so closely some of my own thoughts over the past couple of days, it's kind of scary. There is something in what he says that the layout of the menus and tabs is getting rather cluttered.

I've just clicked on the manage button to take me into the BO, at which point I can see four rows of menus & tabs, a sidebar containing multiple additional options (the use of which are not entirely clear to me), on top of which there is then a list of posts, with a variety of selection options. Given that some menus then have drop-down options and some options suffer from duplication, it's not a great surprise that getting going proves difficult for many.

It does strike me that perhaps an overhaul is due in that area. The default grey bar at the top of the page (visible in public or BO) when logged is, is largely an irrelevance to my way of working - if that could be superseded by the next menu down, it would actually speed up my access to what I really wish to work on. The only thing it seems short of, is a menu item to take straight into writing a new post, and another to take me back to the public view. If necessary, why not make the second menu the one with the drop down options?

For me it perhaps doesn't make so much difference, as I pretty much know where stuff is now, but I can't help thinking that currently it looks cluttered and overly complex, even more so for anyone new to b2e. Unfortunately, I think the documentation doesn't help dispel that view - as unappetising as it is, that's one area I really feel could do with some work.

on a second thought, about the BO tabs, it may be even more interesting if we gave the user the freedom to arrange tabs horizontally, like the browsers do, with a light weight drag and drop script

May be hide the advanced settings at the first place and show on demand or make them less visible.

And i believe the tabs should be ordered according to "priority" and usage frequency instead of "importance".

I.e, Instead of current order;
this order might be more useful,

Posts/comments, Blog Settings, General Settings,Users,Files,Dashboard,Stats

I am looking at my 2x install and for example under blog settings there are 10 tabs and every tab has like 10 options to choose from which leaves you with a hundred things that feels you have to deal with.

IMO, basically what an average user needs are the first 5 tabs at the first place.

General - Features - Skin - Widgets -Categories

the next five tabs are not things that the novice user necessarily has to change.So the next half of the tabs may be hid, or less visible, like if white background is used for the first 5, the next five may be light gray or with less transparency giving the feeling that, we have these other cool extra settings if you are done with the basic ones and like to play with.

Same goes for the general set. tab too.novice user wouldnt feel obliged to have post types, file and file extension settings, antispam or regional set. but he 's gotta know they are there in case he/she needs it.

And a single line random help/tips bar that may be easily toggled (unlike the evo bar) may be useful to give user heads up like ... "if you want to do this click a>here
There are a few other usability ideas to ease it for the average user, especially inquiring plugins/skins.I dont know how big place does bopit have in 3.x but such a tool should be very important and should be sticked into users eyes like "hey we have quite much extras here come on take a look, all it takes is a single click to download".Especially for such a software like b2 that has false reputation for not having those extras, skins and plugins.But the last time i checked, my blog was running over 15-20 plugins and there were tens of skins available, which i believe should be way more increased this coming year.

Emin, making the Back Office less scary sounds like a good thing to do, but where should I start specifically? What are the scariest things in your opinion?

Actually i had written a long comment but i am not going to post it, i dont want to drag the post too OT.
I hear you, you have your own valid points.

Just want to add, that i feel that you are trying to extend the number of users reaching the average user , and if you do, i d advise if i may, simplifying a few things, starting from making the BO less scary.
I hope change will be for better

Nicole: thanks for your message :)

Emin: I know you mean good :) (so do I ;)

Now, moving on from the incompatibilities issue to core security and stability:

The reason why the WP core is so vulnerable and breakable is because they spent all their efforts on making it look good on the surface, but underneath the facade, their core is still the old original b2/cafelog core, which was badly conceived to begin with.

We, at b2evolution, spent about 2 to 3 years to completely rewrite the core in a modern, clean, object oriented, safe & secure manner.

*That* is the main reason why our core is more stable than theirs.

It has not much to do with how many or how little features are included. As long as we keep applying the same strict coding standards to additional features, we can add as many modules as we want, it's not going to change the core stability any more than adding plugins.

Furthermore, we typically have much stricter coding rules for the core than most plugin developers have. Therefore, using core features rather than plugins is generally more stable and more secure. That is *not* to say that all plugins are badly written. Several are very good indeed. But you never now what you get when you use a new plugin from a third party. Using core features, on the other hand, is a guarantee that those features are as robust as the rest of the core. (They may have less bells & whistles though...)

I know this is no matter to advanced users like you, who know which plugins they can trust and which plugins they can't. But for new users it is a problem to first have to hunt down the plugins they need and then have a bad experience because one of the ten plugins they installed actually, and unfortunately, undermines the whole system.

I hear you on the fact that some plugin developers are very loud about the core overlapping with any little inch of what one of their plugin does. Being loud does not make them right though. Yet, again, there is no right decision here. It's black coffee vs coffee with cream. Different people want different things.

Now if you ask me, there are still, and there will always be infinite areas for plugin developers to express their talent. But my position remains that if a particular feature is needed by a significant percentage of users or blogs, we are considering including it and maintaining it as part of the b2evolution package, either as a bundled plugin or as a core module, depending on what makes most sense from a technical standpoint.

Hey, i meant good up there.

I did not imply skin features should be considered as core, nor b2 skins are eager to break.

Maybe it is just that i talked too much it got all complicated but i insist that i am not contradicting with myself.

Simply; i was trying to tell; "AFAIC, the reason WP is so vulnerable and breakable is its "core and the core features", AND b2 is not at that stage, its core is far more understandable, straight forward and in good condition.And I suspect, the newly added and upcoming features may screw up the whole thing.Thats all.I hope its all clear now.


at short term, murmuring voices may be annoying, and the departures may not look so important, everyones position may be filled but most of the staff more than a staff member to me, i just want the old sinergy back.

This discussion is going nowhere as we dont seem to understand each other, but i am looking forward to your new posts, good day ciao

After having some issues yesterday and not being able to use my blog for some hours I fiddled with WP for a while.
I was a great fan of WP before and I just gotta say that it doesn't cut it for me any more.
I still wish I knew more how to get certain things to work in b2 (the avatar thing is one), but those are minor issues (for me).

Some people will never change and some people will always bitch.

Yes, it got more quiet on the forum, but there are still great and helpful people.